Edward Ssekika transcribed the rest of the interview, which gives an insight into Besigye’s thinking.
You have been in opposition in Uganda for more than a decade, what do you have to show for it?
You have been in opposition in Uganda for more than a decade, what do you have to show for it?
Many things have changed in Uganda over the last three decades that we have been active in politics.
…and that is because of you, isn’t it?
…and that is because of you, isn’t it?
Certainly not; it’s because of very many people but I wouldn’t discount my own personal contribution.
What has your personal contribution been in your opinion?
What has your personal contribution been in your opinion?
I think it has been at several levels.
First of all, I was involved in the protracted military struggle that
brought the National Resistance Movement into office.
Looking at the times, when you were an ally of President Yoweri Museveni, I put it to you that in 2001, 2006 and 2011, you stood in elections against him and you lost each time, pretty badly?
Looking at the times, when you were an ally of President Yoweri Museveni, I put it to you that in 2001, 2006 and 2011, you stood in elections against him and you lost each time, pretty badly?
Well it is not fair to say that I lost
because you only lose if there is a fair contest and certainly none of
those contests were fair, and this is not just my opinion, it is also
the opinion of the Supreme court of Uganda, they categorically said that
the elections were not free and fair. Therefore, in such a contest you
can’t talk about losers and winners.
The Commonwealth Observer Group and the EU both expressed concern that there was no level playing field, [there was] use of money and abuse of incumbency, but they said the question of legitimacy of the outcome should not be raised because Museveni would still have won?
The Commonwealth Observer Group and the EU both expressed concern that there was no level playing field, [there was] use of money and abuse of incumbency, but they said the question of legitimacy of the outcome should not be raised because Museveni would still have won?
Of course that is not a reasonable
conclusion, once you have said that there was a problem with the playing
field, once you have said there was abuse of incumbency by bringing in
so much money, so once you have highlighted all those things you can’t
go ahead and give such a conclusion
But they did
But they did
Which I think was a diplomatic conclusion and that is part of the problem that we have with external observers.
Do you still insist that you might have won those elections?
Do you still insist that you might have won those elections?
Actually, I know that we won those
elections, but incidentally apart from what has been said by the courts
of law that had evidence, in 2001 and 2006, court unanimously, agreed
that the elections were not free and fair.
Now that you have failed for whatever reason at the ballot box, you are shifting your protests now to the streets are you trying to cause regime change through that way?
Now that you have failed for whatever reason at the ballot box, you are shifting your protests now to the streets are you trying to cause regime change through that way?
First of all, we proved that elections
were not free and fair, we proved that we have popular support and we
now want a fair election. Our protests are not primarily for regime
change, they are for a free and fair elections.
A lot of people say otherwise, Andrew Mwenda in the Independent Magazine, wrote in 2011 during the walk-to-work protests and said ‘this radicalized group’ largely led by Kizza Besigye has now opted for civil protests to promote regime change
A lot of people say otherwise, Andrew Mwenda in the Independent Magazine, wrote in 2011 during the walk-to-work protests and said ‘this radicalized group’ largely led by Kizza Besigye has now opted for civil protests to promote regime change
Well, regime change we want, but we
don’t necessarily look for regime change without elections. We think we
should have free and fair elections and have regime change that way. If
there was free and fair elections, definitely Mr Museveni would lose
power.
In 2011 on CNN, you said, you would not be surprised if what was happening in North Africa [then] spread to the rest of Sub Saharan Africa, but that hasn’t happened in Uganda?
In 2011 on CNN, you said, you would not be surprised if what was happening in North Africa [then] spread to the rest of Sub Saharan Africa, but that hasn’t happened in Uganda?
Well it didn’t happen even in those Arab
countries I was talking about for the last 50 years, it doesn’t have to
happen the moment you say it, but all the ingredients that caused the
Arab spring are definitely there in most of Africa. The fact that there
is broad marginalization of large sections of the population, the fact
that there is unbelievable corruption and monopoly of power by cliques
of people and that there is gross violation of rights…
Again, Andrew Mwenda wrote that the Arab spring is less likely to happen in Africa largely because the political systems are participatory, a factor that mitigates against revolutions?
Again, Andrew Mwenda wrote that the Arab spring is less likely to happen in Africa largely because the political systems are participatory, a factor that mitigates against revolutions?
Obviously, Mwenda is expressing a personal opinion
Let me give you figures then, 65 per cent of all MPs don’t get re-elected in Uganda, the NRM led by Museveni holds 254 out of 379 seats in Parliament, the others are held by five opposition parties and independents, so there is some democratic space in Uganda?
Let me give you figures then, 65 per cent of all MPs don’t get re-elected in Uganda, the NRM led by Museveni holds 254 out of 379 seats in Parliament, the others are held by five opposition parties and independents, so there is some democratic space in Uganda?
No there isn’t, you see, you have to
understand the structure of the state, power is not controlled by the
NRM as an institution, it is controlled actually by Museveni as a
person, the NRM is Museveni and it is in the interest of Museveni that
actually MPs and other leaders are not re-elected, because if they
become powerful within NRM, then they undermine his control of the party
and of the state. Actually, he wants fresh and uninformed people to
form the team around him each time.
I put it to you that there is some democratic space in Uganda, freedom of the press for instance, reporters without borders, has looked at many countries but has put Uganda at 104 out 179 countries with relatively free press, better than Brazil, Nigeria and many other African countries
I put it to you that there is some democratic space in Uganda, freedom of the press for instance, reporters without borders, has looked at many countries but has put Uganda at 104 out 179 countries with relatively free press, better than Brazil, Nigeria and many other African countries
Actually in terms of free press, it is
possibly a wrong area, because Andrew Mwenda more than anybody else,
would know that his organization, the one he worked for and groomed him,
The Monitor, has been closed twice by the military, invading it and
keeping it closed for weeks because of publishing something that was
perfectly factual.
But it is moderately free...…
But it is moderately free...…
You don’t need to labour the point. I
wouldn’t even myself categorize Uganda as a total authoritarian regime. I
think it is a liberal regime, but don’t forget that Mr Museveni and all
the leaders that have ruled Uganda, none of them came to office through
an election. All of them came to office through bombs; they bombed
their way to office, all of them.
You were his personal physician; you backed him as a leader at the beginning, you participated in as you put it in the bombing campaign?
You were his personal physician; you backed him as a leader at the beginning, you participated in as you put it in the bombing campaign?
Absolutely; and I was involved for good
reasons. But the point here is that all through our history, there is no
change of government peacefully and all the leaders who have stayed in
office have done so with the use of the military. The fact that they
were not in the first instance voted by the population, they are not
removed by the population, meaning that the population doesn’t have any
control over their leaders.
The fact is, if you look at Uganda’s neighborhoods, you have got a lot of instability around you. South Sudan, you have got problems with Somalia and the al-Shabab. I put it to you that actually as being observed in Egypt, that actually sometimes people want to be ruled by a strong person. Look, Hosni Mubarak was removed and people now back Sisi another strong man
We need to be very careful about this
whole debate of stability, democracy and the rights of people. There is
no doubt about the fact that strong leaders can momentarily create some
semblance of stability and even a semblance of peace
Is it a semblance or real stability, you had bombs in Kampala in July 2010, so you have got a problem in Uganda…..
Is it a semblance or real stability, you had bombs in Kampala in July 2010, so you have got a problem in Uganda…..
The point I’m making is simply that
whereas strong leaders without strong institutions can create some
semblance of stability and peace through coercion and abuse of state
power, it is not sustainable. Actually, the ultimate effect is worse,
because once you have emasculated the institutions of the state and you
have a strong individual, once this individual collapses, the state
collapses. This is partly what we have in Somalia…
So president Museveni can stay in power indefinitely as long as he is capable of running the country?
So president Museveni can stay in power indefinitely as long as he is capable of running the country?
No; because first of all, that stability is not sustainable
In
September 2013, US secretary of defense thanked President Museveni for
Uganda’s leadership in the region, praised Uganda’s efforts to defeat
the al-Shabab
If you removed the name Museveni and put
Mubarak, the American leaders could be saying the same about Mubarak
just a few months before the upheaval that destabilized Egypt up to now.
Mubarak indeed created the impression that there was stability in the
region
Museveni said on CNN that, “I’m not Idi Amin, who would kill his opponents and throw their bodies in River Nile. I haven’t seen Kizza Besigye’s body floating for the crocodiles to eat”.
Museveni said on CNN that, “I’m not Idi Amin, who would kill his opponents and throw their bodies in River Nile. I haven’t seen Kizza Besigye’s body floating for the crocodiles to eat”.
Well Idi Amin managed to get himself
notorious worldwide by some of his acts. But if you actually see the
substance, what both of them are doing, they are not far removed.
Are you saying Museveni is as bad as Idi Amin?
Are you saying Museveni is as bad as Idi Amin?
Oh yes, they are not far removed
Would you still be wandering on the streets of Uganda, if Idi Amin was still around?
Would you still be wandering on the streets of Uganda, if Idi Amin was still around?
May be not, but certainly the difference is simply in the extent not in the direction. They are exactly in the same direction.
What is your agenda?
What is your agenda?
You see what we are trying to
fundamentally deal with is injustice. Injustice of marginalizing large
sections of our people. Our agenda is mainly in three areas; one is to
make sure that we have an informed, involved and active citizenry that
can demand and ensure that they are well governed. Two, we want
institutional governance rather than personal rule and institutional
governance that is underpinned by respecting rights, the rule of law and
effective control of corruption.
Corruption has devastated all our
services. Three, we want to build an economy that is inclusive and broad
based. We have been talking about growth of the economy by 6 per cent, 7
per cent, 5 per cent but a very narrow base growth.
But the World Bank in a report in April 2014 said Uganda has established a strong record of prudent management. The economic growth has enabled a reduction in the number of people in poverty; Uganda has already surpassed the MDG goal of halving extreme poverty and hunger by 2015. So, Museveni has a good track record of tackling poverty?
But the World Bank in a report in April 2014 said Uganda has established a strong record of prudent management. The economic growth has enabled a reduction in the number of people in poverty; Uganda has already surpassed the MDG goal of halving extreme poverty and hunger by 2015. So, Museveni has a good track record of tackling poverty?
No, first of all let me say that the starting point of the NRM in 1986 was extremely low because the state had collapsed.
So, Museveni took over a country that was in bad shape?
So, Museveni took over a country that was in bad shape?
When you talk about halving the number
of people in poverty, in statistics it appears impressive that is if you
have been getting one dollar a day and then you get one and a half
dollars a day, it appears that you have grown, but the reality is and
this is the problem of the World Bank, they just use figures and not
real conditions of the people [human development].
In the last 30 years, first of all,
Uganda still has one of the highest birth rates, we have the youngest
population in the world with more than half of the population less than
15 years and when you are talking about the improvements it is
improvements against this extra ordinary expansion of the population and
the quality of the people. By the way, maternal mortality has increased
from 16 women dying per day to 19, according to the latest reports.
[Finally] are you running [for president] in 2016; yes or no?
No, I won’t run unless there are fundamental reforms which we are investing our time and all our efforts to achieve.
[Finally] are you running [for president] in 2016; yes or no?
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